what do we do with these?

Recently I heard someone liken those (like me) that believe America's founding fathers were not what we would define "Christian", to those that deny the Holocaust. Needless to say I was extremely offended and saddened by this. I realize that many of our Founding Fathers said "religious" things in public forums that would support the "Christian" claim. However, what do we do with these quotes?

UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION
The First Amendment
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

Article VI, Section 3
"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."


JOHN ADAMS
"Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?"
-letter to Thomas Jefferson

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
-letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
-letter to Thomas Jefferson

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."
-Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11

"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.'"
-a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756)

JAMES MADISON
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
-"A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
-"A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
-1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches

THOMAS JEFFERSON
"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."
- to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
- letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."
- to John Adams, 1803

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."
-in his private journal, Feb. 1800

It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it."
- to Carey, 1816

"The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore."
- to Story, Aug. 4, 1820

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.
1. That there are three Gods.
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing.
3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith.
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save."
- to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822

"Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a common censor over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
-"Notes on Virginia"

The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation [birth] of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation [birth] of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
- to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823

"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever."
-Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

"... I am not afraid of priests. They have tried upon me all their various batteries of pious whining, hypocritical canting, lying and slandering. I have contemplated their order from the Magi of the East to the Saints of the West and I have found no difference of character, but of more or less caution, in proportion to their information or ignorance on whom their interested duperies were to be played off. Their sway in New England is indeed formidable. No mind beyond mediocrity dares there to develop itself."
- letter to Horatio Spofford, 1816

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."
-letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
-letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT
"The Complete Jefferson" by Saul K. Padover, pp 518-519

BENJAMIN FRANKLIN
From Franklin's autobiography, p. 66:
"...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

From Franklin's autobiography, p. 66:
"My parents had given me betimes religious impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself"


THOMAS PAINE
From The Age of Reason, pp. 89:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all."

From The Age of Reason:
"All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

From The Age of Reason:
"What is it the Bible teaches us? -- rapine, cruelty, and murder."


There are many more quotes and information on these and other Founding Fathers. How can we, as Christians, bury our heads in the sand and "forget" these quotes?

One last thing, in the same conversation that this person likened me and others with my same beliefs with those that deny the Holocaust, they said "Actions speak louder than words" This is so true. Do a little research on the lives of these people and most of them certainly did not live "Christian" lives. Besides the fact that the very constitution they drafted denied basic rights to women and black people. They also oversaw the slaughter of millions of Indians and started the slave trade to pad their own pockets. They saw some people (anyone other than the white man) as less than human and not worth even basic rights under in this new country. Does that sound Christ-like or "Christian" to you?

Immigration's real "criminals"

I've been reading a few blogs and some news stories about immigration lately. I had some thoughts come into my mind while I was cleaning today and had to put it down. First of all, I believe as Christians, we have a responsibility to love and serve anyone we come in contact with, especially the poor and downtrodden. Most illegal immigrants would fall into this category. However, I am not going to tackle the "Christian" views in this post, I'm going to address it from a "political" viewpoint.

First of all, open your mind with me for just a second and imagine you are in the immigrants shoes... You live in a country where, despite all your best efforts, you have been unable to make a living for your family. Your children are always hungry and you can't stand seeing them get sick from malnutrition that never gets resolved. A man comes and promises a job in the US that will make all your dreams come true. So you make a gut-wrenching decision to leave them behind, not knowing when you will see them again, if ever, for the decision to sneak across the border is fraught with danger. So you kiss them goodbye and promise to send home all the money you can, as soon as you can.

Once you get into America, your "contact" brings you to an "employer" who gives you a "job". You work all day, into the night and barely have enough left after paying for your own scanty meals, to send anything home. But you keep at it because at least this work is better than no work back home.

You soon realize no one could legally make someone work in these conditions. No American citizen could be forced to work like this. A few months in, you'd love to speak out against this employer that abuses you for little pay, while his bank account gets more and more bloated to satisfy his appetite for pleasures your family has no hope of ever seeing. Resentment builds but you have no way to bring justice to this person. If you show the slightest hint of rebellion, he'll have you deported and it's back to your children starving. So you keep at it.

Imagine all this, and then imagine the country you're in calls you a criminal. They ignore the fact you had no way to get in legally (95% of people that come in illegally would never get approved in our current system), and your children were starving. They ignore the fact that you took no job they would have worked themselves. They ignore the "Employer" that made it possible to get the job in the first place and then took advantage of your illegal status to exploit and control you in order to pad his own pockets.

Who is the REAL criminal in this scenario? Why are the men/women that "employ" these illegal immigrants never talked about in all the immigration policies debates? If they are, I've not heard it. This seems like such a simple solution in my eyes. Shut down the slave labor that promises hope of work not available to them in Mexico and for what would they continue to sneak in? I know, I know, it's not "simple" but neither is fencing and patrolling the whole border! I'm thinking focusing on the employers would still be easier than that!

Shut down the greed and we'd shut down the illegal border crossings. And then once that happens, we Christians better be ALL OVER the fact we need to be helping those that still have no work in Mexico. We can't forget the poor just because we no longer deal with them as illegal immigrants.